The Playbook Podcast

Tia Williams on Nurturing Success in Work, Parenthood, and Self

February 15, 2024 • Charlene Green & Allison Mathews • Season 1 • Episode 1

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When the clock strikes five, the day is far from over for many professional women; the 'second shift' awaits. Drs. Charlene Green and Allison Mathews know this dance all too well, balancing demanding careers with the whirlwind of home life. In our latest episode of Second Shift Playbook, we're joined by Tia Williams, best selling author and beauty editor of Tom Ford, to explore the realities and triumphs of this balancing act. As women of color, we laugh, share heartfelt stories, and above all, provide tangible strategies for thriving in both professional and personal realms.

Strutting into New York Fashion Week's electric atmosphere, Tia Williams gives us a peek behind the runway curtains, revealing how she juggles the glitz of the fashion world with the deadlines of her writing career and the demands of motherhood. Her secrets for staying on top of it all? They're spilled in this conversation, alongside her signature beauty advice that's nothing short of revolutionary, particularly for Black women. As we peel back the layers of glamour, we confront the less discussed but equally important aspects of our lives, such as mental fortitude in the face of racial stereotyping and the essential, often overlooked practice of self-care.

To wrap up our session, we celebrate the artistic achievements of women, discussing book-to-screen adaptations, including Tia's own "The Perfect Find," which has graced Netflix screens with Gabrielle Union at the helm. We delve into the empowering works that resonate with us, such as Kennedy Ryan's "Before I Let Go," and Diane Carroll's enlightening memoir, while advocating for the necessity of mental health and self-recognition in our daily lives. Join us for a deep and invigorating discussion that affirms the power of women to craft a life that's not only balanced but also deeply rewarding.

Allison Mathews:

Welcome to Second Shift Playbook, the essential podcast for women navigating the dual demands of professional careers and home responsibilities. This show is dedicated to the millions of women who've had to make the tough choice between their careers and caring for their families, and to those who strive daily to balance both. In a world where women, especially women of color, in high stress fields like the medical sector and academia, face the daunting challenge of the Second Shift at home, we're here to offer support, guidance and empowerment. Our mission is to shine a light on the stories of resilience and determination, to discuss the policies and changes needed to support women fully and to explore how we can all contribute to a more equitable society. Each episode features conversations with trailblazing women like Tia Williams, the bestselling author and beauty editor at Tom Ford, Lily Panchasarp, an innovative account executive at Disney, Pamela Price, the dedicated deputy of Balm in Gilead, and Michelle Gethers, the visionary chief diversity officer and head of corporate social responsibility at Visa. These remarkable women share their journeys, the obstacles they've overcome and their strategies for managing the complex interplay of work and home life.

Allison Mathews:

Second Shift Playbook isn't just a podcast. It's a movement towards creating a world where women don't have to choose between their careers and their families. As a PhD in sociology, public health researcher and entrepreneur, I have a deep understanding of stigma and discrimination, emotional intelligence, social psychology and stress management. I have dedicated my career to advocating for marginalized communities to access resources and am now committed to advocating for women to become financially independent and fully empowered to navigate life's challenges. Join us as we delve into the realities, the struggles and the victories of working women everywhere. Together, we can redefine what it means to work and live in harmony, supporting one another through the challenges of the Second Shift. Welcome to Second Shift Playbook.

Allison Mathews:

Hello everyone and welcome back to the Second Shift Playbook. We are so excited to be back together again. I'm here with my colleague, Dr Charlene Green, and I am Dr Allison Mathews. I would like to describe myself as the social justice advocate who is advocating for all the marginalized people, but also is a serial entrepreneur and loves to talk about work-life balance. I'm here with Charlene Green. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Charlene Green:

Hey, I am Charlene Green. I'm one of the anesthesiologists here in the favorite state of North Carolina. My claim to fame is that I want all children, all adults, to have subject matter learning so that we can be the best that we can be in our lifetime. But, more importantly, I want to help others have a work-life balance so that we can be the best that we are, no matter if it's at home or at work and other places.

Allison Mathews:

Yes, yeah, the reason why we got together was because we both are professional women. We love to kiki and laugh and tell jokes and tell stories with each other. We know that other women in this world are dealing with the same issues that we're dealing with trying to deal with drama and toxicity in the workplace, trying to work, manage our families and the second shift. We have these full-time jobs and then the second shift is going home and taking care of our families and our households. That's what the premise of second shift podcast is. We are just excited to be here. So Fashion Week is happening this week in New York. I like to think of myself as a fashionista. We have our special guest on the show who has all the knowledge about Fashion Week Tia Williams. Tia Williams, introduce yourself.

Tia Williams:

Hi you guys. Thank you so much for having me. I am Tia Williams. I am an author and I was a beauty editor at Fashion Magazines for a really long time, so I definitely have a love of fashion.

Allison Mathews:

Yeah, and she's my cousin. Awesome.

Tia Williams:

And also Allison, Me and Allison are cousins!

Charlene Green:

Yes, and Fashion Week is a semi-annual event, so it's twice a year and it's in Manhattan, correct? Different locations and that type of thing. From your perspective, how much do the New Yorkers who actually live in New York get to participate, or is it more of an international and national field where you get these wonderful designers and staff that come in? Do the average New Yorker get to participate in Fashion Week?

Tia Williams:

No. So Fashion Week there are several. There's New York Fashion Week, there's Milan, there's Paris, now there's Copenhagen and there's London, and so those all happen twice a year. So Fashion Week is always pretty, it's like an industry event. So it's for fashion buyers, it's for fashion editors, it's for the makeup glam to see the new trends that are happening. A lot of brands have influencers come because that's their way of doing marketing, and stylists go so that they know what clothes they want to buy to put on their celebs for the upcoming season. So it isn't the kind of thing where anyone can just go because it really is. It's a trade event.

Charlene Green:

So how do the locals the how do the locals no matter if it's Milan or Paris or New York get to embody that? Is just that you all go to the restaurants and you support the economy of the areas, or how does that work?

Tia Williams:

Yeah, it's definitely that, and there's like a vibe, there's like a electricity in the air. If you're walking around outside where a show is happening, like you might be photographed by a street style photographer and end up on a blog or end up in the New York Times style section, and there's this buzz everywhere because this international fashion community has descended upon our little island for the week. There's a lot of parties that happen. Yeah, that's a good example. Like you don't have to be in the fashion industry to attend a fashion week party, so that is a cool way to get to feel like you're a part of everything that's happening. There's a lot of celebrity events. There's a lot of sample sales, which is fun.

Charlene Green:

Oh, that sounds great yeah, yeah. So Tia, tell us about yourself, tell us how, what you do on a daily basis and what makes you tick.

Tia Williams:

Oh God, what do I do on a daily basis? Uh worry, um. So I'm the mother of a 14 year old who just started high school, so I do mommy stuff, though it's really cool that she's like entering this era where she kind of has more independence. Like she gets up and goes to school. You know, I don't. She takes the subway, like I don't have to drive her, I don't have to tie her shoes. You know, it's like I don't make her lunch. It's like, oh my God, she could do her own thing. I have a book due in December. Yes that I am nowhere near where I am supposed to be.

Allison Mathews:

So wait, is this the one that you're doing pre-sales for? No, that one, you're done with that one.

Tia Williams:

Yeah, it takes a lot longer than you think to publish a book. Like, from the time you finish a book, it'll probably be on stands a year or a year and a half later.

Allison Mathews:

Wow.

Tia Williams:

So I have a book coming out in February, but I finished writing that this February, this past February.

Allison Mathews:

Yeah, okay.

Tia Williams:

So the book I'm working on now is for 2025.

Charlene Green:

Wow, that's awesome. So, going to your 14 year old, uh, and you being a subject matter expert on beauty, does your 14 year old take advice from you or the YouTube channels?

Tia Williams:

You know what's funny? Yes, she does take advice from me. She actually does. You know, like any mother of a teenager, but I don't know how I was with teenage boys, but teenage girls think you're a dork, like they think you're ridiculous, you're a nerd, you don't know anything about anything, y ou're cringy, you're so embarrassing.

Charlene Green:

Yup, I have a pre one, yup.

Tia Williams:

Okay, you get it. So, generally speaking, she thinks I'm mortifying, but when it comes to beauty, she knows that I'm the person to ask, like her friends ask me, you know for advice.

Charlene Green:

Wow, that means you are really awesome, yes.

Tia Williams:

It means I know how to apply eyeshadow.

Charlene Green:

Yes.

Allison Mathews:

If anybody's looking for beauty blog, you're the one who's going to show up, so why would like you go to YouTube and you're the one who shows up, so of course she should follow your advice.

Charlene Green:

So Tia, if you could, if you could tell us like I know that we're kind of like just talking right now, but if you could just tell us the number one beauty tip that you love, that maybe you utilize every day, that maybe someone would know to beautify themselves that doesn't take more than 10 minutes, what would you say?

Tia Williams:

This is going to surprise you guys. Well, maybe not, but it surprised me when I heard about it. I'm a blush girl. I grew up in a blush forward house. Like, my mom would be like where are you going, If the blush had not been applied, and gold too. I wear blush on the beach. Blush can take you from you know, looking like you have mono to looking awake and radiant in two seconds. And what a lot of black women don't know is orange tones look the most natural on us.

Allison Mathews:

Really.

Tia Williams:

Not pinkies, not, not berries, so much. Something warmer with orange or brown, burnished. Cool tones tend to pop out and look really artificial, which is fine if you're going for that like baby doll, like right kind of look, but if you want a more natural and there's even a NARS blush called exhibit A, I think, that is just orange Like you look at it and be like, there's no way in hell, Put it on and you will never look better.

Charlene Green:

So, guess what ? We have a Sephora that just opened up in my area, another one. I am going to go to Sephora and get NARS exhibit A, because I need it. I'm going on a trip on Friday and I'm going to take your advice, because the one thing that I've learned and this is this is why I think Allison and I are doing this, is that when you talk to subject matter experts and they tell you that something works, do it.

Allison Mathews:

You better go for it, go for it.

Charlene Green:

I don't need a lecture, I don't need a speech. I need your expertise of your lived experiences, and that's what I'm going to do. Nars exhibit A. Exhibit A. Absolutely. Don't be put off by the, it looks really loud. So, because you said that, I'm not even going to question it, I'm going to purchase it and I'm going to use it.

Allison Mathews:

Wait. So, Tia, how did you get in? Like I know you have a long journey, you're Like the, aren't you the? Didn't you start the first beauty blog or something like?

Tia Williams:

that the second?

Allison Mathews:

So how did you get into your career. Tell us the story.

Tia Williams:

So, like I said, I was a beauty editor and at the time I had just finished up at Glamour, I think, and I was taking a little bit of a break because I had written my first novel and I wanted to see if I could make a living as a novelist. And at the time my literary agent was like, and I'm obsessed with beauty, like I love writing about beauty. So I was talking to my agent and I was like I'm really going to miss being a beauty editor. And she was like, well, you could just start a blog and just review products on your own. And I was like blog, what is that word? What is this word? What, what even is that? I didn't know what it was. And she sort of explained it to me and we got on blog spot and I just started it. You know, it was the Wild West of blogging, literally. There was only one other beauty blog and I just treated it like a diary. You know it wasn't, there was no way to monetize it back then. There wasn't,

Tia Williams:

you know there were no ads, there wasn't people we had mastered, like SEO, or there was barely a digital landscape and there was no social media. I think there was my space, maybe, yeah.

Allison Mathews:

Yeah.

Tia Williams:

But that's it. So it was all word of mouth. And I remember when I, when I did my first post, I sent out like an email blast to people on my email because that was the only way to get you know, get the word out, so yeah, it was great, it was a great experience.

Allison Mathews:

And then, okay, but also, how did you become a novelist? Like, were you an English major or?

Tia Williams:

Extremely, yeah, yeah. I've always been a writer Like, there's never been any other choice or idea for me of what I would do with my life. I always knew I would be one. Always on the newspaper staff at school, you know, yearbook, all of that, majoring in English. And I had these two things that I was in love with being a novelist and fashion magazine. So I went to UVA, majored in English, graduated in the summer of 97, by August of 97. I was living in New York and I had, I was an editorial assistant at YM Magazine.

Allison Mathews:

Yes, yeah.

Tia Williams:

Young Miss. Yeah, so I just I started creeping up the mastheads of these magazines went to EL, Glamour, Teen People, Essence, Lucky Magazine. And along the way, when I was at Glamour it was 2001, I had this insane charismatic boyfriend who was like a wild narcissist but like I could not leave him alone, as you do at 25, and I, it finally got to be too much, I broke up with him, I left my job at Glamour, put all my stuff in storage and I moved to Seville, Spain, just for a breather, to teach English to third graders. And while I was there I just sort of as a therapy for me, a therapeutic exercise, I rewrote my story with this guy. But I made him fantastic and I gave us a happy ending. And when I got back home to New York and started working magazines again, I was like I think this is my first book. And so I got an agent and I sold it and that was the Axel Diva. That was my first novel which was part of the book before.

Tia Williams:

Yeah, and so ever since then, I've been doing these like dual career paths as a journalist and an author.

Charlene Green:

That's fantastic. So what would you say has been some of your challenges of any being a beauty editor? And I can give you an example of me as an anesthesiologist and a person of color, and I'm gonna take you back to that hidden figure scene where Kathleen Johnson comes into the room and somebody thinks she's a trash girl and they hand her the trash can so, that's been happening to me for 29 years where people think that I'm like gonna give them a blanket or I'm going to take out the trash and things like that, But you still do your job and you do it really well. But those are the microaggressions that you get. You know in different workspaces is different for different corporations, different people. What have been some of the challenges you have faced and how have you overcome them?

Tia Williams:

Girl. Okay, the first big thing that happened it was my first New York Fashion Week season. I think this is like 98. Fall of 98 and you know when you're a beauty editor or a fashion editor, especially if you're one of the lower on the masted, you have to go cover Fashion Week not sitting in the front row, but going backstage while everyone's getting ready and interviewing the designer, interviewing the

Charlene Green:

Don't you tell me they told you to get up out of your seat.

Tia Williams:

Oh, no, no, no. I was backstage to interview the hair team, I believe, at Ralph Lauren, and someone with a clipboard came up to me you know a young PR girl and was like, oh, you're right over there. And I was like, oh, no, I'm with Elle magazine. She's like, no, no, you're right over there.

Tia Williams:

She's pointing towards where the manicurists were sitting to do the models nails. Why she assumed first of all, why she assumed that I was there to do nails, I think we all know. She was mortified when I told her that I was from, you know, one of the top three fashion magazines in the entire world. And not that there's anything wrong with being a manicurist, first of all. What they do is amazing and I could never do it because I don't have the talent or the skill set, but those women backstage are usually women of color, if not black women, they're Hispanic women. A lot of the time they're Asian women and when it's a very you know, everybody backstage is white, except for me and Naomi, you know, and I definitely wasn't there to be a model, so I must have been there, you know, to do nails.

Charlene Green:

And I think I'm just gonna say this real quick and I know we got so much stuff to talk about. I think, from my perspective, like I have to say, laser focus on what I do and I'm so good at it and it doesn't bother me because my focus is making sure that the patients get the most excellent, exceptional care, no matter what the the noises or what people say or what people do or things like that. But I think what many people don't understand is that when that happens, you do have to take a pause and you have to get yourself together to stay in that laser focused space, so it actually just just detracts you from being amazing for maybe a minute or two. Yes, so you have to refocus and I think that's what people don't understand. So those that's called to me I call it micro slits or micro aggressions that we have to like balance back and I'm saying it's unnecessary.

Tia Williams:

Well, that's, and you know that Toni Morrison quote is almost exactly what you just said. She's like the real function of racism is to distract us from doing the work. Like we have to take a minute and justify our humanity and then it takes us from whatever work, the work of living.

Charlene Green:

Yes, its a neurodivergent system or something, I don't know, but anyway,But I have learned to stay laser focused, but that's so that's the reason why we're doing this podcast. How do we teach other people to stay laser focused and to be of excellence and keep out the noise? So yes, thank you for that.

Allison Mathews:

So what do you do.

Tia Williams:

Oh sorry, go ahead.

Allison Mathews:

No, go ahead Tia.

Tia Williams:

Well I was just gonna ,I was just gonna basically say the same thing. Like you know, there's gonna be ignorance everywhere, especially when you're moving in mostly white spaces and I think the era where I was coming up in the industry, you know we were expected to do a lot of teaching and justifying and explaining, and what I think is really nice is that I look at my daughter's Gen Z, you know, and then Gen Alpha is that what's next? They don't explain anything to anyone.

Tia Williams:

If you don't get it, you can Google it. Like it's a completely different sort of perspective which I think is moving in the right direction.

Charlene Green:

Awesome, that sounds great.

Allison Mathews:

What do you do to take care of yourself, especially when you? I mean, that's just one example, right, but I'm sure there's like a million of them. What do you do to take care of yourself?

Tia Williams:

You know what I'm going to be. This is the circle of trust. I'm going to be completely honest. Whenever, I'm asked this question like, you know what's your self care or like how do you? Sadly, this is the truth that I don't like.

Tia Williams:

I'm a little bit of a machine, like I just push forward, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that I also have a chronic, invisible disease. I have chronic migraine. I've had it since I was a little girl and it's always been this thing I have to fight and I've always felt like I have to keep moving because if I sit down I'm not going to get back up.

Allison Mathews:

Well, I'm curious about that because I knew about your migraines. But I'm curious, like, doesn't that kind of force you to have to take care of yourself because you have migraines? Like, I have migraines. Not probably not nearly as bad as yours, but like I've had to change my diet, I have to, like, make sure I exercise, make sure I sleep. I have a whole sleep routine just to avoid my migraines.

Tia Williams:

But I don't consider that, I mean that's like health stuff that you have to do to sort of stay alive and be functional, Like I have that. Like when I think of taking care of yourself like something that relieves stress, something that you know where you can unplug and wind down and chill. That doesn't have anything to do with like pain control or you know, and that stuff I don't really do. Like I have girlfriends that have whole my L, my niece, who is 12, has an entire skincare self-care regimen. Skin is perfect, she's 12 years old, she has her toner and her this and her that, and that's like her special me time. I don't really have that. I need to get that.

Charlene Green:

So that's why we're here. We're going to teach all people, particularly women, how to get that self-care and how to own that space and how it's not just something that you just schedule in, it's something that's mandatory, just like on the plane. When they say you know when you're, when you're having problems on the plane, they give the oxygen to you first and the second person you have to give yourself oxygen in order to function. Because the I don't know if you've heard of the Nobel Prize winner. I believe her name is Lizas Washburn. She has done some of the most premier evidence-based research on DNA telomeres

Charlene Green:

to say that our DNA telomeres it helps us with stress and all that are being destroyed exponentially on our chromosomes and we don't know why. I think it's a lot of different things. I think it's stress as well. So one of the things I was going to ask you is have you made sure that you have gotten the best migraine experts in the world to support you? If not, I suggest that.

Charlene Green:

And the second thing is you had mentioned something about anxiety, one of the things that helps me when I wake up every day. I wake up every day never complaining, because I know that I'm alive. So that's the first thing I would go my fingers on, like I'm alive. And then the second thing I do is think to myself wow, I don't have to go out on the fields and be a slave. I actually say that to myself every day.

Charlene Green:

And no joke, I do every day. I'm like, I'm like I'm up at six. m., in the morning. Most slaves would have gotten up at 430 in the morning and I'm like I cannot complain, Okay. The third thing that I say to myself is do the thing you fear, and the death of fear is certain. So anytime I'm struggling with something that could be whatever it might be a skill set or something else I'm going to do that work to get perfected at it, and I'm going to do it. I'm not going to shy away from it, I'm going to run right into it, as long as it's not dangerous, of course. Right, do the do the thing you fear, and the death of fear is certain. That's been one of my mottos throughout my whole life,

Charlene Green:

right. Like, if you're afraid, if you're afraid to go into the Manhattan Fashion Week, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, just do it. And then the death of fear is certain. If you're afraid to run into that, whatever, whatever, whatever. Just do it, but be be prepared, of course I'm not saying go on and not be prepared. Be prepared, but that will decrease your fear. It doesn't work for everything, but it works for a lot.

Tia Williams:

I'm obsessed and I'm writing it down.

Allison Mathews:

You on as an expert. You didn't know you go get advice.

Tia Williams:

Really, this is amazing the death of fear.

Charlene Green:

Yes, and one of the things that I think has helped me with this podcast is I'm now becoming more of my own now of like, just really thinking through like, instead of just like scripted or whatever. What. What really do I want to say or what do people need to hear? All our lives we've been scripted and we've been like this is what you should say, what you should do, but they're real life circumstances that we really need to help each other get through the day. How do we do that? Right, and you know and and, for instance, I keep a little black book, right, so when crazy stuff happens, you got to write the stuff in a little black book so you can make sure that you remember it.

Charlene Green:

If you run into do that person again, you can remember that. You ever do crazy stuff and you're like why is that person treating me like that? And you don't remember that. You got to look back in your black book and say, oh, they did that, this. Oh, that's it. They've always been like that. I just forget. Now keep a little book and I'm like, oh, they're a little different. I just have to remember that.

Allison Mathews:

That's hfunny.

Charlene Green:

I love that.

Allison Mathews:

So I mean, if anything is also good, I would I like to do, I don't know if this is necessary self care, but it's, It's just something to remind me that, what I like when you talk about dealing with imposter syndrome, like it reminds me that all the work that I've done, like that I've accomplished it, so what I'll do it maybe quarterly is I'll write out everything that I've done for that quarter to be like, oh my God, I accomplished a lot, and you know, because you're just constantly working. But we're not like congratulating ourselves for the work that we've done and be like thank you body, thank you, mind for, for allowing me to do these things, right. Thank you, God, for allowing me to be show up and be able to do those things and know that there's some kind of impact in the community or in my industry or whatever. I like, I like doing that as a practice. And then I read it out to myself like, Allison.

Tia Williams:

Th.

Charlene Green:

Yeah. that's awesome. And I hear that you have something that's either a movie or TV special. Is there something

Tia Williams:

Yeah, so one of my books, The Perfect Find, was adapted into a movie on Netflix starring Gabrielle Union. Thank you. It came out this June and then my last novel, seven days, Seven Days in June, is being adapted to a TV series. Yeah, I know, but it's on hold right now because of all the strikes, so so the one you just mentioned, is it on TV or is it on Netflix?

Charlene Green:

So the one you just mentioned, is it on TV or is it on Netflix? is it on Amazon? Where is it?

Tia Williams:

We don't have. We don't know which streaming service it's going to be, but it's going to be on the streaming service. but the first one you mentioned is that one is on Netflix, yeah, and what is that?

Charlene Green:

But the first one you mentioned is that one is on Netflix? and what is that? and who plays? Who's in the movie, who's in the story?

Tia Williams:

Gabrielle Union is the. yeah.

Charlene Green:

Gabrielle Union from sleep number? we got to get sleep number on here, sleep number. She has convinced me to get a sleep number.

Tia Williams:

Right, that should be better. I was like what movie was that? It sounds like a thriller.

Charlene Green:

No, I'm like is this so weird? I'm like I need to get a sleep number.

Tia Williams:

I know that she sells the sal. The hell out of those, I know he.

Allison Mathews:

I know, I was like she and Dwayne Wade have really done a good job of like

Charlene Green:

Right. But Gabrielle Union plays. Does it play a character in your book?

Allison Mathews:

Well, I was going to ask was like with the TV show, would she be doing

Tia Williams:

Yeah, you know what, I didn't even think about that but, l'll

Charlene Green:

Awesome. Have you met her?

Tia Williams:

Yeah I met her several times. She's so nice.

Charlene Green:

Yeah, With your expertise. She's got to talk to you about, like you know, her beauty regimen and all that. But you know we'll leave that out Cause that's probably personal. But you, I'm quite sure she has asked you some questions Cause I know that you are an expert,. but you have been a great author. I think one of the questions we always asked people is about books, but you've already told us that you are a prolific writer and doing amazing jobs.

Allison Mathews:

Yeah, so what's? What's some of your favorite books that help you navigate your life and kind of inspire you?

Tia Williams:

So many, so I don't really read self-help books.

Tia Williams:

I read a lot of fiction and a lot of memoir. I just recently read a novel called The Guest by Emma Klein, which was completely amazing kind of, about this young grifter girl that goes to the Hamptons for the summer and doesn't know anyone and sort of hustles her way through society, which is so interesting. I love scammers and grifters. I love it. Yeah, any documentary about you know pulse scammers like I'm there. I love Kennedy Ryan, who is another black romance novelist. She just released a book called, Before I Let Go, t hat is really smart and beautiful and grown up like it's this, It's this black couple, married couple who owns a restaurant together and they get a divorce and it's not so often that you leave a book Love story that deals with such adult topics like divorce, therapy and mental illness and, you know, kids.

Tia Williams:

It was really well done. What am I reading right now, oh, diane Carroll's memoir, which I hadn't read, and it came out a while ago, but it's called the Legs Are the Last To Go and it is so inspiring, everything like there's something in there that is relatable for everyone. Such a good story.

Charlene Green:

Well, you sound like an excellent, superb writer. You remind me of your expertise in beauty. That's totally different than what people would imagine. I was very surprised about Stacey Abram, of just her skills that have been a political, just great person, but then she is a great mystery writer I mean my goodness, all these beautiful minority women that can run these dual roles of being a great writer and then owning their spaces in the real world. I think it's amazing, so I thank you for that.

Allison Mathews:

That's fascinating.

Charlene Green:

Awesome, you know.

Allison Mathews:

I just finished. Well, actually I'm listening to Prince Harry's book right now.

Tia Williams:

Oh, I read that.

Allison Mathews:

Yeah, it's interesting. I think, yeah, it's interesting.

Tia Williams:

It's fascinating. Yeah, I was like you have no interest in ever speaking to William again. I know that.

Allison Mathews:

I know just the way that they're family dynamic. I mean, it kind of reminds me of like succession or something I'm like oh

Charlene Green:

So being a physician post COVID and seeing the horrific mental health state of America, particularly young people under 25, I'm gonna give kudos to not only Meghan Markle but particularly Prince Harry of putting on the map discussions of mental health and owning it and taking a deeper dive. He deserves a Nobel Peace Prize for his advocacy for mental health and it's brought to the. There's so much now policies and legislation coming out to deal with that. I'm not saying that he's the cause of all of it, but it's brought to the attention how its needed, how the insurance companies don't pay for it and how we've been left on our own to ignore it for so long because nobody can really afford therapy, you know.

Tia Williams:

Yep, and it's particularly remarkable coming from the family and the institution he comes from.

Charlene Green:

They're not supposed to have feelings at all, let alone express them and work on them and try to heal.

Tia Williams:

I mean, they paraded this kid out behind his dead mother for the whole world to see, yes,

Charlene Green:

But imagine that's, But he's just a microcosm. What is it? A canary and a coal mine for really what's happening in the world, in all of our families, you know, yeah, mental health is real. Depression should be treated just like hypertension.

Tia Williams:

I know, I don't know what it's gonna. It's definitely getting better. But I know in our community still, especially with black men of a certain age, they're just like why am I gonna tell a stranger my business? And then there's a black church. So much of it is like oh, pray it away. You're like that's not talk to your pastor, talk to your. We need to separate faith and mental health.

Charlene Green:

Well, I'm going to mention my favorite book, and I think we're probably going to have to end a little bit. My favorite book recently is Our Unfinished March by Eric Holder, a former former attorney general Holder, and it actually is a call to help us have a better generation, and that is we need to have independent commissions that deal with voting districts in all states, like an independent commission that deals with gerrymandering, no matter if you're a.

Charlene Green:

Democrat, republican, whatever it is, if you are a citizen of a state, you should have an independent group of people deciding how to do the district so that everybody can have representation. And that's why there's so much mental health now, because people feel as though their voices aren't heard in many respects, and even rural Americans in white America their voices aren't heard either. You know, poor people in general are not heard, but, more importantly, most people always voices are not heard because we kind of have a society where, you know, people just do what they want to do in many political spaces because they have to listen to their constituents. So I love that book. You guys need to read it. We need to support independent commissions for gerry for to have states, not gerrymander the district, so that all voices can be heard, no matter what ethnic group, what economic status you have, so that we can have a better America.

Tia Williams:

And that way people to vote, to vote to because so many people I know feel like, well, my vote isn't going to matter Anyway. And the system is so corrupt. So what's the point?

Charlene Green:

Well, I don't think the system. I think saying the system is corrupt is just putting in that that whole narrative. I think we just need to have people like us, who have a voice, be able to be able to elect our legislators and maybe give them the opportunity to do something better.

Allison Mathews:

We have to hold them accountable though.

Charlene Green:

There's no other. So I know you guys have traveled all over the world. When you travel the world, you know I don't ever think that our system is the worst. We have a great system. We just have to perfect it. We have to just make it better and stop complaining about it. But what are you we're going to do to make it better? And I just think that I'm happy that we have a federal system where we can get public education. Go to some places in the world. There's no federal system for you know different things. If you go to some of these parts of the world like, look at Morocco, right, how is it? They don't have. They don't have a emergency federal system that can come and give them billions of dollars to be rebuilt their homes, right, we have a really good system in America. We just need to make it better.

Allison Mathews:

Just for some context, she is very involved in policy work. So like I know it sounds like it's from left field, but it's because Charlene is like and she's a part of a super pack and very involved in politics in North Carolina. So and she does, she does a lot of advocacy for health equity work in North Carolina. So that's, I think that's a lot of where it's coming from your background.

Charlene Green:

So we have. We have 100 counties in North Carolina and most of them are poor.

Charlene Green:

Yeah and most of them are white. So it we have to get beyond the inter ethnic conflicts of just races and understand that we have a huge poverty issue in our country and we need to fix it. And how we fix it is we all come together and try to have policies that we all agree with. Everybody wants to be educated, everybody wants to be able to have a little livable wage and everybody wants to take care of their family. Every time I see a kid come into my hospital, always ask them a bunch of questions of the matter what race or color or creed they are. They they want a better opportunity. Right, how do we give that?

Tia Williams:

But there's no way of talking about poverty in America without talking about race there's no way to take race out of any of these conversations, because a poor white person and a poor black person is not the same and, if I should, we created equal, but what we're just not.

Charlene Green:

But they still go to poor schools. So that's the number one thing is how about we just have a better back public education system? Yeah, no matter if you're poor, white, poor black or middle class, we will any good educational system. So there's some things that we all can agree on. Let's try to work on those, because I think we're educated we, the more we can maybe save America.

Allison Mathews:

I love the optimism. I'm a little, I'm a little bit more.

Charlene Green:

I'm a little bit more cynical, but I love the.

Allison Mathews:

Okay, so we're going to wrap this up. We just want to thank you again to it. We have covered every topic under the sun, but it's really just we just trying to have conversation, you know, and and just talk about our lives and what, what interests us. So, just so that you took the time out of your incredibly busy schedule to join us and just give us some insights on what your life is like and hopefully, people who have listened to this podcast, we have gleaned some tips on how to deal with migraines, how to deal with stress work life balance and have a talk about politics.

Tia Williams:

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Charlene Green:

You were awesome. If you have any, if you need any help with getting the best migraine expert in the country, just let me know.

Tia Williams:

Thank you, I will, I will thank you.

Allison Mathews:

Bye, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, you, you, you, you you.